Since 2019 and your departure from the operational management of Ledger, we’ve seen a bit less of you. What are you doing now?

A lot of things! As a business angeI, I support entrepreneurs and I also have personal activities. I take care of my estate in Vierzon, I enjoy spending time with my family...

Are you still involved in crypto?

I'm still involved with Ledger and Coinhouse where I sit on the Board of Directors. Now, I would be lying if I told you that I no longer stay on top of the crypto markets because 90% of my assets are in cryptos! I remain very exposed. If cryptos collapse tomorrow, I would take a beating.<br>

In a recent interview with “Les Echos,” you explained that you are still very optimistic about the sector...

I haven't changed my opinion in over 10 years. I still believe in cryptos.

The headline in “Les Echos” about "the man who still believes in cryptos" was a bit excessive because it gives the impression that I am now alone, which is obviously not the case. But it was funny, and that's the game.

What matters in the end is that the interview came at the right time. It reminds us of certain evident facts.

You've been in the ecosystem for over 10 years. Were you surprised by the collapse of FTX?

If you had told me the day before that it was such a scam, I wouldn't have believed you. I followed the project from the beginning, I was one of the first investors in FTT (the platform's token, Editor's note).

I remember I invested 50 bitcoins in FTT at the time, really at the very beginning. I had followed the launch of the project, discussed with the team, which seemed quite solid. They had developed their own technology that worked very well. It seemed legit.<br>

There wereno warning signs?

Yes, in retrospect, but it was impossible to imagine such a fraud.

Did you lose money in FTX?

At one point I had a lot of FTTs and I gradually "de-risked" by selling some of it, but I still staked some of it on FTX (you can earn rewards on your holdings, Editor’s note)

When things got tough in October, I had the opportunity to de-stake my FTTs for a 10% penalty. I thought it was very expensive. I looked at the articles, and tweets from FTX and Alameda Research team members saying everything was fine, until the next day... Then everything exploded and the price of FTT plummeted.

I sold everything for bitcoins, but it was too late, the funds were frozen on the platform.

Did you lose a lot of money in the operation?

I lost about 50 bitcoins with the FTX crash, but I had made money selling FTTs before the collapse, so the overall transaction was not financially negative.

On the other hand, what is negative is the impact of FTX on the rest of the industry players like Coinhouse and even Ledger, because if the activity has increased significantly (find the interview with Pascal Gautier), the context has not improved.

Everyone is affected.

Can we quantify this impact? Coinhouse has 15 million euros blocked at Genesis, which itself used FTX...

It's hard to know. Nicolas Louvet (CEO of Coinhouse) and his teams have taken the necessary measures to compensate customers (find his interview).

Beyond the impact, this case is a real lesson in market concentration and the risks that come with it.

What is really frustrating is that such an episode devalues an entire sector. Nobody can believe that we are serious enough. We have to be lucid, we all look like clowns, I feel like I'm back in 2016. All the educational work done with the general public and institutional actors has taken a big hit.

How long will it take to turn the page?

It will take time. Is it a year, two years, or more? No idea, but the damage is done. Besides, you can see it for a few weeks with the great return of editorialists and economists who announce every year the death of bitcoin and cryptos.

Do you think the sector is immature?

Things have evolved a lot, and in a positive way. There has been a real appropriation of the crypto subjects and this can be felt in particular with the companies.

I recently had lunch with the executive committee of a major bank and they were all quite positive about the subject, even though I know very well that banks are not very pro-crypto.

I felt a real change on the issue, even on their approach. The proof is that they were talking about "cryptos" and no longer about "blockchain". Anyone who has been in this world for years knows what progress this represents. And then FTX came along, and that was a cold shower. Those who were pushing the crypto topics in companies must now shave the walls a bit.

The fall of FTX has also had a significant political impact with authorities wanting to tighten regulation...

Yes, and that's not surprising. The most problematic part of this story is that these initiatives, as we have seen in France, can give the illusion that it will change things, which is absolutely not the case.

After that, we would be wrong to blame politicians. The crypto ecosystem does not need politicians to be in trouble. A lot of players in the industry have developed on this idea of "yield". And right now, services that offer yield are simply over.

There's staking, right?

Sure. But a lot of companies jumped headlong into yield because the markets were only going up. But you don't just change your business model.

What is the ecosystem missing to take a real step forward?

I think that the sector still has an amateurish side. There is an overall lack of rigor, even in the way we speak, in the way we present ourselves. There's a kind of "cool" culture that's nice, but when it's more than a veneer, it becomes a liability.

What are the topics that interest you most in crypto?

There are a lot of them! Overall, what I like most is this idea of Web3. The promise of putting users back at the center of the model via new governance and data ownership is a radical change.

Web3 can have the same impact as mobile applications did in the 2010s. They gave a new impetus to the digital economy and reshuffled the deck between companies. There's a pretty strong Web3 groundswell. Right now, we're still in a stupor, but things will pick up.

Nevertheless, not many applications are known yet...

It depends on the projects and their structure. On applications, things are moving forward: look at what's happening with decentralized finance, NFTs. Obviously things are not yet "mainstream", but things are moving forward.

What about the metaverse?

It's more complicated... Honestly, I still don't understand everything about metaverse. There are as many definitions as there are people talking about it, it's a bit of a catch-all word.

What Web3 projects have interested you the most in the last few months?

Difficult! I'll ask ChatGPT (laughs).

More seriously, I would say it's around decentralized finance. That's where you find the most promising things today.

I would also say that a project like Sorare is a good example of a good Web3 project. It's the promise that you can distribute unique cards that players own, that they can trade. On that basis, you have a whole new economy being created.

Have you invested in Sorare?

No, that's kind of my regret. I still remember Nicolas Julia coming to see me during 2017 to tell me about Sorare.

At the time, I was still CEO of Legder and managing our fundraising, so I was pretty busy, and I had also just invested in several projects. I believed in it and thought I'd look at it later, but things went very fast. Finally, I was able to invest in Sorare, but through an investment company. It's a small thing!

Speaking of investing, many people know you from television and the show "Qui veut être mon associé" on M6. You seem to like it!

I even love it!

What do you like?

Several things. First of all, the fact that it highlights entrepreneurship, I think it's a very positive message in France. Then, there is the show itself, we make real deals, it's quite stressful, it reminds me of my career as a poker player where I often had to make important decisions quickly. Finally, I discovered the world of TV which is very nice. I take great pleasure in doing it.

You don't put too much emphasis on crypto in the show. Is this intentional?

The production asked me if I wanted to talk about it, but you have to be lucid, talking about investment is already not easy, so if on top of that we talk about cryptos...

Last year, I signed a deal with the creator of a dishwasher startup and he said on air "I want you to help me make a cryptocurrency!" Everyone wondered what he was talking about (laughs).

The funny thing is that when people recognize me on the street, most of them talk about Ledger and cryptos.

You are known more as the co-founder of Ledger, and less as the co-founder of Coinhouse? Why is that?

I did most of my media appearances as CEO of Ledger.

Are you still active at Coinhouse?

Nicolas (Louvet, editor's note) manages the company, but I remain present. I see him often, we talk a lot, especially about strategic decisions.

What do you think of Binance?

I don't know, it's difficult. What strikes me the most is the hyper-embodied side of the company, everyone knows their CZ boss! In itself, this is a good thing, but it is also a big weakness, especially in terms of governance.

The fall of FTX has reignited the debate around digital asset preservation. What do you think of the MPC technology used by some of Ledger's competitors?

The big advantage of MPC is that there is no hardware, so it is simpler. Its disadvantage, and it's an important one, is that it's a technology based on mathematical research work that still has very little experience. There is no guarantee that it is totally secure.

What is Ledger's vision for the next ten years? What is the goal?

Ledger's vision is that the entire financial infrastructure will migrate to one based on blockchain technologies.

Once you have that in mind, you have it all figured out. Ledger allows you to protect and keep your private keys and therefore your assets, bitcoin, cryptos, NFTs, on this new financial infrastructure...

Today, our main challenge is to advance the user experience while maintaining a maximum level of security. In this ten-year vision, the challenge is not to sell 2 million Nano or Stax, but to sell more than 100 million and equip the whole world.

We're going to support the development of Web3. That's why we've brought in people who are so well known for their user experience, like Ian Rogers and Tony Fadell.

How does Ledger Live fit into this strategy? Will we be able to connect our bank account for example?

I don't think so. Initially, the goal is to integrate payment cards and other financial services. Ledger has to become that tool that allows you to manage all your transactions because it is the bridge between your private key and other applications.

Have you made any progress on your project to simplify the management of the "seed phrase" that we are still obliged to keep on a piece of paper (12 or 24 words used as a key to recover the wallet)?

Pascal Gautier has already said that there will be announcements on the subject.

When?

Soon I think. The management of the seed sentence is a considerable issue for security reasons.

Is there enough talent in Web3?

Not enough! There is a global problem and we must act at the level of education. That's why I co-founded AlgoSup? We train young developers.

How was this project born?

The school was created by Franck Jeannin, a former Ubisoft employee who came to settle in Vierzon. He chose Vierzon because Ledger has set up a factory there and other tech companies are also present. Success leads to success, and it made sense to settle there.

What is the specificity of this school?

Everything is done in English, students learn to work in groups, also to work remotely.

Currently the premises are the former Ledger, and we will move into the industrial hall "B3" located in the center of Vierzon. The goal is to do something like Station F in Paris. I will also open a start-up incubator, the "V3".

When will the Vierzon City Hall be open?

Never, and I'll tell you why: to change the world, it's better to be an entrepreneur than a politician! So I'm not saying I'm going to change the world, but today I can do a lot of things by being an entrepreneur.

What if you were offered to be Minister of Digital Affairs one day?

I would make the same answer.

If I were seriously asked, I still think I would take 5 minutes to think about it, but I'm pretty sure I would decline because I don't think I would survive in an environment where we spend too much time reporting and not enough time acting.

How do you manage all these activities?

I am no longer CEO of Ledger! I have more time for myself.

Speaking of which, how did your departure go? Was it a decision on your part?

Yes, even though it's not a decision you make when you wake up one morning.

It took a while, it was in 2019, you have to remember the context: we were in a complicated environment, post "bull market" of 2017, and we were a bit overstaffed, so we had to restructure the company, that is to say, separate from a number of people, and we wanted to start from the top.

With Pascal (Gautier), we said to ourselves that the two-headed management that we were embodying was working very well, but that it was an opportunity to simplify things. I thought about it a lot, it took time, and I also asked myself if I was the best person to manage a company of 1,000 people that was constantly growing. I finally called Pascal and told him that I was going to propose to the board of directors that he replace me.

It was a very emotional time at Ledger, and it went very well.

Did you have any regrets?

No, because I think I made the right decision. Afterwards, I may have some remorse because in the life of an entrepreneur, running a company that becomes a unicorn (a company worth more than a billion euros) is still something very strong! The goal of an entrepreneur is also to live these moments.

Is the Stax, which is coming in the next few weeks, an idea you could have had?

Honestly no, but it is a great product.

What is the interest of such a product? What are its advantages?

This product does not fundamentally bring more than the Nano, but it is aimed at another public, which likes the NFTs a lot and wants to be able to show them. The goal is not to renew the Nano fleet, but to seduce a new public.

Will we be able to do different things on Ledger Live with the Stax?

Not in the short term, but the experience will be easier, more enjoyable.

Are you satisfied with Ledger's payment card?

We still need to improve things in terms of user experience, but the product is great, the banking offer works very well.

Ledger has grown a lot, but it's not yet big enough to stop being prey to a few giants like Apple. What would you do if Apple was interested in Ledger?

I'd be tempted to say no, but it's always the same: it's when you face the abyss that you see who you are. Honestly, it's a question I've never actually asked myself before, maybe because I don't allow myself to, and besides, I'm not the only shareholder. But the goal is not to be bought by Apple.

And get listed on Nasdaq?

That's another topic.

In reality, things are simple: if you want a nice quote you go to Nasdaq, and at some point to continue to grow, you need a nice quote. However, we still have some time, the market lacks maturity. Since it is impossible to have stable forecasts, it is risky because shareholders do not like fluctuating results.

In the meantime, will you be raising funds?

It's not really the time! Our good fortune is that when we did our Series C (380 million euros in spring 2021), we did it on a reasonable valuation, so if we want to raise money we can do it again without any problem.

What do you think of companies that have raised at historic valuations?

Let's say it's good as long as the markets are going up... When you've raised at too high a valuation, you take the risk of not being able to refinance, or under terrible conditions. This is a real lesson. Don't get carried away by excessive valuations!